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Stop--Is That Abuse? The Secret Danger of Masterminding and Giving Advice

3/16/2016

30 Comments

 
Picturewww.nyphotographic.com
Have you ​ever been in a group where people were sharing good advice? Often the recipient gets terrific insight. But I was struck by a mastermind experience that was quite a contrast…what felt like an unintentionally abusive situation that's common, but often overlooked.
 
Our hot seat colleague (we’ll call her Mindy) had asked about how to “get out there” more—be more visible in her community. Mindy had a truly useful service.  She wanted more people to know about it, and build her business as well. The group had great suggestions about speaking…blogging…not just topics, but how to reach a tribe who’d get her genius and support her. Yay!!!
 
I was eager to throw my ideas out, too…but something made me pause.  I realized that with each new idea, Mindy’s energy was dropping lower and lower.  Almost like a boxer being punched in a ring—valiantly standing as long as she could, each idea landed on Mindy as if it were a blow, rather than the support intended. 

And when one person in the group realized her idea hadn’t quite landed, others lined up to contribute their own great advice. And, of course, Mindy did her best to stand and take in this input, too…even as her ability to absorb it was getting exhausted.
 
You see: the problem wasn’t that Mindy hadn’t heard any of these ideas. There were some added nuances, of course.  But it was pretty much all ideas that Mindy had heard before, but couldn’t bring herself to do. 
 
Not for any “logical” reason.  Logically, the advice summed up to talking to people and writing about work Mindy loved; she’d done all the elements of that.  But actually implementing the package, in Mindy’s real-world experience, just felt heavy—even scary. So no matter how generously intended and theoretically useful the advice was, it was only reminding Mindy of past failures to implement similar advice. 
 
No wonder Mindy’s energy was plummeting. In a way, that mastermind forum was a ritual of abuse. 
 
Abuse?!!! That’s a rather extreme assertion. Yet, a forensic psychologist who specializes in the area gave me the best definition of abuse I’ve even heard: “eroding the soul of another.” And Mindy’s soul energy was being eroded, even despite the group’s intention to help. When kind-hearted people advise us about what we ought to be able to do--but struggle with​--it actives shame, not resourcefulness.
 
And you know what? Because we pretend we’re logical beings (but aren’t), this abuse happens a lot more than we realize.
 
So what’s a remedy?
 
Well, logically, how about admitting that we don’t always have access to strictly rational thought, and make it ok to say that “uh, honestly, I’ve heard ideas like this before, and I know I ought to be able to apply them, but I can’t. Can you help me with that?” Maybe not everyplace, but at least among trusted advisors. If nothing else, that would stop inadvertent demoralization of people we’re intending to support.
 
When I’ve been in situations like Mindy’s, it felt like moral failure to me…that I was somehow spineless or deficit in some way that couldn’t be remedied. If a few people in the group could have shared about the struggle they had to apply these or similar ideas, that would have at least normalize the situation…making it possible to find encouragement, rather than attack, in the dialog.
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When that’s not enough—and we’re still getting triggered when we try to apply what we want to do, it’s usually because there’s a “part” of us that’s reminded of some really painful experience in this situation.  Coaches trained in parts work (e.g., Internal Family Systems) can work with these parts and help them so those situations aren’t triggering any more. And that can happen in a few sessions; it’s not months of work. 
 
In the meantime, if you find yourself at the receiving end of a barrage of advice—or wanting to participate in one—make sure the right problem’s being solved. Is this new information to the recipient? 
 
If they’ve heard similar ideas, but have struggled to act on them, explore that struggle, not more ideas. Just piling more on is abusive!

30 Comments
Phyllis Morrow
3/16/2016 04:13:49 pm

Well articulated and thoughtful. Thanks, Mark

Reply
Chuck Silverstein link
3/16/2016 07:37:55 pm

Great article, Mark. I plan to send it to my men's group. It's why 'ripples' are encouraged vs. advice. But it made me think of the person who in many ways can't seem to help him or herself give advice. He or she may know it's not a good idea, and may want to stop, but just can't seem to stop. I know people like that. So if we give them advice to stop giving them advice, is that abusive? Thanks.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/17/2016 11:44:46 am

Interesting question, Chuck. Are you looking for advice here? :)

As to me, I think it's always fair game to reinforce boundaries--so if this is unwanted advice I'm getting, and I'm conscious of it, I'd try to find a kind, firm way to say 'No thanks." If it were someone I felt like I had a relationship where they wanted me to surface things they didn't know they might need to, I'd ask if they were open to an observation, etc.

And, yes, telling someone something they "need" to hear but can't listen to, especially if it's delivered in a way thats erosive, feels like abuse to me. (Not that I haven't done it...and it's upsetting, but I think healthy, to see seeds of abuse within myself as well. If I can't see them, I can't heal them, and I separate myself from others.)

By the way, should you find one of these individuals who wants to do something about it, feel free to volunteer me as a resource. Sometimes "stuck" looks like not being able to stop doing something we don't want to do, but can't stop doing anyway.

Reply
Earl Berkson
3/16/2016 09:16:59 pm

If we can get to that true reality, open heart place - terrific. Using the Victories model, I believe that we have all the answers within ourselves. Sometimes comments and questions can help us have "aha" moments - but with no advice or judgment. We can only cross the personal boundary once we have permission, though that isn't a guaranteed help or solution.

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Mark Hurwich link
3/17/2016 11:53:13 am

Permission is a good thing! Thanks, Earl.

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Punky
3/16/2016 10:58:15 pm

Very insightful. Same thing happens in our private lives such as when I gave birth to my first child. The more advice I got the more incompetent I felt.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/17/2016 11:52:32 am

Thanks, Punky. For me, even well-intended advice (when we can't absorb it) can be harder to grow from than intentional criticism masquerading as advice. I can at least recognize and know to fend off criticism, even though it hurts in the moment. Badly-timed good advice can just hang around dragging me down in a hidden way--I often don't even recognize what's happened.

Reply
Arthur Paxton link
3/17/2016 09:01:34 am

Insight based on sensitive observation. Thank you, Mark!

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Laura Polson
3/17/2016 02:43:05 pm

Mark, as always,... your words lead me to reflection. So many times those of us who have "been there" and want to share our advice with the next generation become discouraged by this sort of reaction. We like to say, "They don't get it", or "They don't care" when it's actually us who need to temper broad ideas with actionable items. Well said, and thanks once more for making me think!!

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Jay Borden
3/18/2016 03:32:00 am

Very good points Mark. Many find it hard to form the right question when its about themselves. The other side of your article is that we as listeners have to listen deeply and observe as you did, not just listen to ourselves or want to impress others with our knowledge. In the type of situation you describe, others are being asked for help. And help is what is truly needed, not necessarily what we think is needed.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/22/2016 10:17:29 am

Jay, great reminder to ask about what kind of help is needed so we don't make the wrong assumption.

And also: we will get it wrong, from time to time. But people are powerful, and we can make repairs.

Reply
Lisa Caroselli
3/18/2016 04:19:06 am

Mark, The word that came to mind for me was aggressive. When the communication does not take into account the impact on the other person, it's aggressive and probably more self-serving than helpful. It's very important to be able to take a temperature reading as you go along. Regardless of the intent, if the effect of the communication amplifies the struggle, it will be obvious that it is not helpful. And the worst follow up that I've seen is when a person or a group starts expressing that the person is not open to support. Yes, it's good to learn how to set boundaries, but often the individual is in such a vulnerable place, their vibration is in resonance with the struggle, that they let too much in before they say "enough."

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/19/2016 08:26:54 am

Thanks, Lisa. Whatever one calls it, it's damaging and unproductive. I edited the piece and title a bit from "Stop the Abuse..." to "Stop--Is That Abuse?...."

Without abandoning my stand that this looked and felt like abuse to me, it's even more consonant with my aim to draw the reader in with curiosity and compassion, and let them discover for themselves.

Reply
Julie Ruth
3/21/2016 08:17:41 am

Mark,

I think the article is spot on and timely. Thank you for putting this out there. Like another reader, I too think the word abusive is a bit strong but I can run with it as the point is certainly well made!

I myself run in a circle of really smart people, really talented people and find that we all know what needs to be done in certain circumstances. And it can be exhausting to hear the list of potential action items that need to be on my to do list. That I already know!

I found myself recently having the conversation with a colleague of mine in that her advice was constant and accelerating to the point that I was starting to shut down. And not listen at all to what this person had to say, potentially missing out on some really great stuff!

The suggestion you provide to share a similar circumstance that aligns with the person's struggle is also spot on in my book. If I was in the advice giving role. That is so motivating, versus demotivating.

What specific guidance would you have for the person that is inadvertently at the center of this advise "abuse" to help redirect people to be more helpful...other than "stop!"

Again, thank you for the timely article.



Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/22/2016 10:14:44 am

Thanks, Julie!

"Please stop" with an explanation is probably asking a lot in the circumstance, especially if that shame cascade has started. But it might be the best that can be done in the moment.

Might be a circumstance where an ounce of prevention saves a pound of repair. I find if I tell people I just want to be listened to...and don't offer advice without asking permission first...it helps a lot.

Feel free to print/link to/circulate the article; that might help too.

Reply
Francesca Thoman link
3/23/2016 04:19:17 pm

Thanks for sending this, and letting me know what you're up to. And good for you! You have found a new area of good work that will help others. And there are a lot of well-meaning people that can snarl things up worse than before.

For instance, there are a lot of people who will come up to a disabled person in his wheelchair, and insist that they will pray for them, or those who will dash to someone's side if he has fallen and immediately start tugging at them, even though they do not know really how to help someone up, and have not asked, "Would you like some help?" I call this, "Healer plague..." So this is a very good issue to address! If you help someone to make yourself feel better, then you are likely not listening to that person at all.

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Mark Hurwich link
3/24/2016 09:32:19 am

Thanks, Francesca. Lots of opportunities for "helpful" people to sometimes do things that aren't always helpful. As I once heard someone say, "beware of firemen...they carry matches."

It is contextual, though. A recipient of the Mail Chimp broadcast for this was wondering if it was a violation of the "advice giving" principle for him to comment that he wasn't sure what the thing at the end of my email was, and for him a more legible signature would be better. That's the kind of feedback I DON'T want withheld...for one thing, it's reporting this person's experience. And he knows me well enough to know I value hearing about things "I don't know I don't know." I think the message is be aware, be thoughtful, and if it turns out you've crossed a line make repairs.

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Jana French
3/26/2016 08:55:23 am

Mark, thank you. I realize you are talking about solicited advice that morphs into a kind of "pile on" from the perspective of the recipient, but this also helps me understand the dynamic at play when I receive (and react defensively to) unsolicited advice from family and friends. However well intentioned, such "helpful" suggestions out of the blue trigger shame by suggesting the recipient not only hasn't thought through potential solutions to a problem, but also that she hasn't recognized she had a problem in the first place (because she didn't solicit help). Lisa's suggestion that a well-intentioned pile on is, at its core, aggressive and self-serving resonates with me -- I suspect because we are all guilty of it on occasion. How much more damage we do when we visit this on the people we love without their invitation.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/26/2016 09:26:54 am

It's been intriguing to me how much this subject resonates with people--and, in that resonance, activates related chords. Thanks also, Jana, for highlighting an aspect of Lisa's comment that didn't fully register with me the first time--that when we feel like our helpful overtures aren't embraced it's pretty easy to shift into a more forceful mode that's about asserting/pushing past more than supporting. (No wonder it feels aggressive, punitive, and engenders shame.)

What wonderfully rich comments. Suggests additional remedies, too--I'll have to ponder a "Part 2" to this blog!

Reply
Judy Sachs
3/28/2016 02:40:15 pm

Thank you Mark! Having read the previous comments, this topic does resonate with many of us. As an entrepreneur participating in discussion groups etc., we are expected to 'give advice'. Becoming self aware, both as recipient and bestower, can make all the difference in not over burdening our friends, colleagues and ourselves.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/30/2016 12:17:35 pm

Exactly. Including preparation and practices to promote that kind of awareness.

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Steve Lemieux-Jordan link
3/29/2016 09:00:55 am

The part that resonated with me the most is, checking in with the person seeking advice around the notion of "you may have heard this before and if so stop me..." and "If you have heard this before, and think it is something you would want to do, do you have a sense of what is preventing you from doing so?"
I'll also add that when our, no matter how well intentioned, advice is not well received and are tempted to be more forceful we (I) need to take a step back and ask "what is it about me that feels unheard/disrespected/unloved?" as opposed to ploughing on and making things worse.
At the risk of being abusive, the best advice I can give is, attend a Victories weekend where you will have opportunities to explore whatever it is you need to. :)

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/30/2016 12:13:24 pm

Well-said Steve; thanks. When that compassionate, agenda-less energy of wanting to be supportive turns into something else, beware! (But, also be forgiving. It's part of the human condition, I think.)

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Jacques Gourguechon link
3/30/2016 11:40:51 am

Thanks Mark what a good article. I sure applies to me. It is so insightful that we so often know what to do but are frozen somehow and not able to do what we know we should be doing. It's what lies beneath. What is it that has us frozen? That the devil to expose!

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/30/2016 12:15:54 pm

My hypothesis: shame is almost always involved, perhaps with something else. But because shame makes us want to hide, even that we have shame, it creates that frozen situation because the thing we most need to discuss becomes undiscussable.

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Reno Lovison link
4/14/2016 05:13:51 pm

I have found that often the first question people ask is not the one they are looking to answer. It is the one that identifies their struggle. In this case "Mindy asked how to “get out there” more—be more visible in her community." Before piling on our ideas probe to see where she is at this point. Ask further questions such as "What have you been doing?" "What have you done in the past?" What have you done that has had some success?" "What would you like to do differently?" In this way we help Mindy get closer to an actionable solution. Very likely she may have an idea of her own but is reluctant to implement it for some reason.

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Mark Hurwich link
4/14/2016 06:57:21 pm

Thanks for taking the time to comment, Reno. Questions that slow down the action so we can see we're truly serving the person we intend to in the way we intend to are great...especially if we're open to the possibility that the issue isn't getting an answer, but acting on it, and more questions can become a form of piling on too. It might not be what Mindy's done, but what she hasn't done--and how she holds that--that holds the greatest benefits for exploring. Especially if done with curiosity, compassion, and a sensitivity to the energy of the situation and not just the logic.

Reply
Andy Swindler link
8/27/2018 07:39:33 am

What a beautiful noticing, Mark. Sounds like the group was not truly sensitive to what she needed in the moment, and yet it's a good example of how easy it is to "pile on" in any social situation. This also brings up the concept of projection for me. That people who are addicted to giving advice sometimes do so because that is a way for them to avoid acting on the advice themselves, likely for the reasons you outline here related to fear and deeper emotions.

Reply
Gay Social Connecticut link
3/5/2021 11:54:40 am

Great post, thank you.

Reply
Mark Hurwich link
3/5/2021 11:42:51 pm

Thanks...one of my favorites! Glad it's still being read and you found it useful.

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